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Worse Knife Laws in the World?

Posted by jasonstone20 
Worse Knife Laws in the World?
March 11, 2022 08:14PM
This is a video of a lawyer in the UK talking about knife laws there.

Knives featured:
Spyderco UK Penknife
Gerber Dime
French Corkscrew

The ridiculous things are that if you carry the Spyderco UK, it is classified as an offensive weapon, and then it is illegal, and also the fact they have a huge problem with knife crime now also, so the laws are not working. Funny how that works.

There are runners up for bad knife laws: New York City, Manila, Philipines.



Re: Worse Knife Laws in the World?
March 12, 2022 08:16AM
Jason you have misquoted badly.

UK. Law is the same as nz law.

It is completely legal to carry any non locking less than 3" knife for general use.

It is illegal to carry ANY object with the premeditated intent to use against another human including self defense. The moment any item on your person be it knife or pencil or racket is claimed to be for your safety it is legally classed as an offensive weapon

If you do end up using it in self Defense. You will likely be prosecuted.

If you admit or are heard making a claim you have anything on your person for self defense you can be arrested for its possession.
Re: Worse Knife Laws in the World?
March 12, 2022 08:39AM
I do agree that UK prob has the worst knife laws,

Philippines laws are also worded in a similar fashion to NZ, except for some knives like balisong which need a permit

Law Philippines
Quote
Phillipines Law
Section 1. Paragraph three of Presidential Decree Numbered Nine is hereby amended to read as follows: chanrobles virtual law library

"3. It is unlawful to carry outside of one's residence any bladed, pointed or blunt weapon such as "knife", "spear", "pana", "dagger", "bolo", "barong", "kris", or "chako", except where such articles are being used as necessary tools or implements to earn a livelihood or in pursuit of a lawful activity. Any person found guilty thereof shall suffer the penalty of imprisonment of not less than one month nor more than one year or a fine of not less than Two Hundred Pesos nor more than Two Thousand Pesos, or both such imprisonment and fine as the Court may direct." chanrobles virtual law library

Sec. 2. Article twenty-two of the Revised Penal Code shall apply to persons previously convicted under paragraph three of Presidential Decree Numbered Nine. chanrobles virtual law library
Sec. 3. Any law or ordinance which is inconsistent herewith is hereby repealed. chanrobles virtual law library

Sec. 4. This Act shall take effect upon its approval. chanrobles virtual law library
Approved: November 21, 1978

The most important point to understand here is "except where such articles are being used as necessary tools or implements to earn a livelihood or in pursuit of a lawful activity"

if you are walking around with a knife in your pocket, because you use it for food, cutting tasks and other lawful reasons, no one is going to say boo..

but what it means is that if you take a knife from your pocket and make a threat to someone, you can now without question be jailed for the use of the knife as a weapon and unlawful item.. where-as without this law, someone could claim freedom of expression and no "real" intent to harm.

i think it should also be considered why the laws are being made, as bad as they are. personally, in my own country, i disagree with the laws in general because there is not enough problems to ever justify the laws.

here in the Philippines, there is a strong Pride issue. and a strong drinking culture. people get into fights all the time over "stung" pride in certain parts of society here. often this results in fists flying, bottles smashing.. it used to result in a huge amount of stabbings and cuts when everyone was carrying knives for self-defense.. they were not being used for self-defence, but for pride-offense.

UK has lost the plot on so many things IMO, so has NZ.

the real reason for the knife law in UK has nothing to do with them being used as weapons IMO, becuase the existing offensive weapon law already covered any item as a weapon if used, or threatened to use as such..

the issue with the knife ban was about their ability to arrest youth gangs who apart from loitering may effectively have been committing no crimes that could be proven. the knife law gave them the ability to search, seize and arrest without needing to wait for another type of crime to occur.


with all these laws though.. "because i want to" is not lawful reason.
because i plan to eat a meal later that requires a sharp knife is a lawful reason,
because i prefer to cut open letters cleanly, and not tear them is a lawful reason.

but a kid carrying a knife around, who is unemployed, and loitering.. prob in a child gang. hard to come up with legal reasons.


i would be more in favor of removing all forms of laws of any kind that restrict freedom of the innocent, but then increase the harshness of all penalties for those that abuse that freedom.

At the end of the day though.. i prefer to comment only on my own countries laws. anywhere else. just gotta get the lay of the land and live with it
Re: Worse Knife Laws in the World?
March 12, 2022 02:34PM
cKc,
Yes, I agree. The youth gang thing is a sign of other issues. In LA, they banned hammers and screwdrivers, because you would get arrested for carrying a knife, so the gang members switched to hammers and screwdrivers. As you said in the Philippines, they use improvised weapons (broken bottles) and the fights were a cultural issue. You can legislate morals and common decency along with common sense. What bothers me is how you gauge someone else's intent. That is left up to the description of the Law Enforcement Officer, so it really doesn't matter what you have on you other than nothing, if they want to arrest you they will find a way to do it.

This is what was happening in New York City, making law-abiding citizens into felons (the law was eventually repealed because of the NYPD abuse of it):

[www.survivalsullivan.com]

Quote
https://www.survivalsullivan.com/new-york-knife-laws/
New York Knife Laws: What You Need to Know
Laws and Regulations / By Tom Marlowe / April 6, 2020
New York is the most hostile state in the U.S. when it comes to the ownership and carry of knives, and has made it a point to actively treat mere possession of a knife as a criminal offense, with no regard to other circumstances.

They have laws aplenty on the subject, and much of it is confusing, obfuscating or contradictory.

new york flag
Definitions which ban knives outright matter little when any knife, any knife, can be construed at the instant to be a dangerous or forbidden weapon and see you charged and arrested on the spot accordingly.

Carrying any knife of any kind has proven time and time again to be a bad idea in New York, and in response to recent scrutiny about their draconian knife laws New York’s state legislature responded by increasing restrictions and ramping up frivolous prosecutions.

New York doesn’t want or need citizens, only subjects. We’ll look at their despicable abuse of the legal system in the article below.
[kniferights.org]
Quote
https://kniferights.org/legislative-update/nyc-gravity-law-takes-a-hit-but-still-standing-and-dangerous/
New York City’s abuse of the state gravity knife ban to unconstitutionally arrest tens of thousands of innocent knife owners took a hit in a Federal District Court ruling on Wednesday, but the actual impact on the City and DA’s arrests and prosecutions is expected to be small, depending in part on how the City and DA react. In a narrow ruling, Federal District Court Judge Paul A. Crotty found the state’s gravity knife law to be unconstitutionally void for vagueness as applied to the plaintiff’s circumstances. This decision is subject to appeal by DA Vance.

NOTE: Governor Cuomo signed a bill repealing the state’s prohibition on Gravity Knives on May 30, 2019. However, it is still illegal to carry a gravity knife on MTA subways and buses.
Re: Worse Knife Laws in the World?
March 12, 2022 03:26PM
every law ever made, someone found a way to malign its intended use through poor wording. thats why i am living in the philippines now instead of NZ.. bad laws.. lol
Re: Worse Knife Laws in the World?
March 12, 2022 03:55PM
Quote
jasonstone20


[www.survivalsullivan.com]

contains
Quote

4. The possession by any person of the substance as specified in section 265.04 is presumptive evidence of possessing such substance with intent to use the same unlawfully against the person or property of another if such person is not licensed or otherwise authorized to possess such substance.

(***)The possession by any person of any dagger, dirk, stiletto, dangerous knife or any other weapon, instrument, appliance or substance designed, made or adapted for use primarily as a weapon, is presumptive evidence of intent to use the same unlawfully against another,()



It is (4) that is the crowning tyranny of them all, and the statute most responsible for the torrent of frivolous trials and prosecutions in New York. “Dangerous knife” and “any other weapon” is used in NY as a one-way ticket downtown, and make no mistake it happens every day.

of course. the interesting thing about this is that the law clearly says made or adapted for use primarily as a weapon.

therefore, i cannot believe for a single moment that people carrying pen knife, swiss army knife etc etc could be arrested under this law, or more importantly prosecuted.. more likely they would sue the state.

but..... 90% of all american knives have a "tactical" appeal and sales and marketing.. therefore all NY has to do is go to the sales website for such things and you are done-for.. say tactical.. you are done. the intent is there

While I agree and have heard NY is bad, i would also be careful of taking the word of any other group without good evidence of misuse of the law.. people can be fanatical. i also see a lot of fanatics talking about their rights, and basing their assumptions that their rights are more important than others rights (misuse of freedom of speech to invade peoples personal space etc)


NY Govt website reference

interesting case study

i think when you look at a lot of the charges available. why they had the knife, what type of knife.. or more specifically where (transit) then i think things start looking a lot less draconian than some websites might make it sound.

just like peer reviewed science on edge retention. we should not blindly let the tail wag the dog in these conversations.

i'd like to see the actual evidence of people that were genuinly innocent, following the under 4" folding knife law, being charged
Re: Worse Knife Laws in the World?
March 12, 2022 08:14PM
Quote
cKc

While I agree and have heard NY is bad, I would also be careful of taking the word of any other group without good evidence of misuse of the law. people can be fanatical. I

also see a lot of fanatics talking about their rights, and basing their assumptions that their rights are more important than others' rights (misuse of freedom of speech to invade people's personal space, etc)

That is a huge problem today, with way too many fanatics and not enough moderates.

Quote
cKc
NY Govt website reference

interesting case study

i think when you look at a lot of the charges available. why they had the knife, what type of knife.. or more specifically where (transit) then i think things start looking a lot less draconian than some websites might make it sound.

just like peer reviewed science on edge retention. we should not blindly let the tail wag the dog in these conversations.

i'd like to see the actual evidence of people that were genuinly innocent, following the under 4" folding knife law, being charged

The main issue I have is that self-defense is an inalienable human right. If you have a knife for self-defense, I don't care what type of knife it is, it shouldn't be illegal, as a 3" paring knife is faster in action than most folders of the same size. The size of the knife also shouldn't be limited, as a 2' blade used correctly can kill(remember the 9/11 attacks, flight attendants were murdered with box cutters). Now if you attack somebody, that is a whole different story. Might just be because I am an American and a Jew that I feel this way, as both belief systems have strong individual rights, along with communal rights also, but usually the individual right is put first in America.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/12/2022 08:21PM by jasonstone20.
Re: Worse Knife Laws in the World?
March 12, 2022 09:03PM
cKc,
Also, one of the problems with the NYC laws being enforced is how they quantified a 'gravity' knife.
This is a gravity knife:




A Spyderco Tenacious is not a gravity knife, but it was being treated like one.

And I see zero advantage of a gravity knife over a Tenacious in lethality or opening speed.
Re: Worse Knife Laws in the World?
March 17, 2022 12:56PM
Here in Italy there is a distinction between "proper weapons" (double edged daggers, butterfly knives, swords, bayonets, knuckles etc) and "unproper weapons" (any object that can be used to harm, including sticks, rocks, heavy bags of potatoes etc).
The fact is that, when asked, you should always be able to prove you are carrying the thing for a good reason (other than self defense, nothing is allowed in the case).
In theory, you are allowed to anything reasonable, but in practice you are always relying on the police not having a bad day.
Surely EDC knives are not common here unless you some kind of thug, and most people perceive any kind of bladed object as a weapon because of this.
Re: Worse Knife Laws in the World?
March 17, 2022 01:32PM
Quote
Millscale
The fact is that, when asked, you should always be able to prove you are carrying the thing for a good reason (other than self defense, nothing is allowed in the case).

That is the point I am trying to stress here, the ownness is on the state to show you are doing something illegal. And again, how did carrying a tool for self-defense become outlawed in so many places? That sounds like absolute tyranny to me!
Re: Worse Knife Laws in the World?
March 17, 2022 01:52PM
Quote
jasonstone20

The fact is that, when asked, you should always be able to prove you are carrying the thing for a good reason (other than self defense, nothing is allowed in the case).


That is the point I am trying to stress here, the ownness is on the state to show you are doing something illegal. And again, how did carrying a tool for self-defense become outlawed in so many places? That sounds like absolute tyranny to me!

Democratic tyrrany. in most english driven colonies etc.. self defence has almost been outlawed and made an offshoot of the police and state because they never wanted an uprising. bear in mind the legal system was based on feudal systems where no one had rights except royalty

I agree. it should always be on the state to prove you have done something illegal, not might do something illegal. but the fear of the majority of what might happen to them has allowed govt after govt to make many imposing laws for the good of the community.

it will keep going until the point where people have zero control over their lives.

Jason, the problem is.. defining what is illegal is changed all the time. so even the statement, "that its on them to show you are doing something illegal" has no meaning, as they have already defined carrying the item as being illegal, where you really are defining illegal by a moral code of what the law should be, not what it is..

where-as in a free state, it should be that you can do anything you want as long as it does not cause harm, or infringe on the rights of others... so if you carry and use a knife, a bat, a gun, etc etc for nothing that harms or causes damage to others property etc, there should be no crime..

people are too scared that someone walking down the street with an AR15 or a sword, claiming they will do nothing wrong could be a lie and any moment they decide to hurt a lot of people. and once you take that rationalization it just can have the scope narrowed forever.

most places on earth have a level of tyrrany the moment they hit a certain level of civilization... but the truth is that before then, when you were allowed to do what you want, Wild West, dark ages, etc.. then many people were just being slaughtered randomly by anyone with enough power.

there has never been a time in history, where everyone carried knives, guns, bats around mobs of other people and no-one was getting hurt.

you have to live in montana or someting i suspect in the middle of nowhere as a farmer grinning smiley
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