Quote
alkali
Emphasis below is mine:
I have a set of the Silverpoint Whustof paring knives: hawkbill, Wharncliffe, and spear point. Nice handles, heard the steel is junk.
Rumors about knife performance - whether positive or negative - do nothing to create or spread actual knowledge about knives, and can easily be misleading.
One of the things that drew me to T0.1M was Cliff Stamp's obvious effort to avoid misinformation. I recommend that we maintain that standard here.
Agreed. Hearing it is junk is annecdotal, and worthwhile only as a piece of information relative to new information that actually describes a personal experience.
I will add a small note here, even though this could be it's own topic.
I've been using Whustof for 20+ years regularly. they are my go to chef knife typically when buying chef knives.
I tend to always buy the classic or ikon series. never the grand prix or otherwise. the reason isn't just the handle designs, but the fact that i have noticed a great lack of care on their part in the cheaper ranges of knives. the steel might be identical (no idea) but the geometry of the blades is definitely much thicker and with less quality from my personal experience.
i bought one of the injection molded 6" knives here in the philippines.. i use it as my "junk" knife. because the experience was poor to say the least compared to every other whusthof i've owned in the icon and classic (french line). this is all down to the geometry, and a part down to the feel of the handle and balance. i spent some time thinning the edge and it works fine now. still dulls a lot because its used roughly like the nakiri
i believe whusthof performs pretty much exactly as i'd expect from the grade of steel and hardness rating of that steel, which is in the 57/58 range on most models.
if you take a whusthof knife and do a barrage of cutting on wood and cardboard etc, i think for many, this might create a downplay of experience where they say the steel is "junk steel" but this information has been negated tenfold by demonstrations from people like Cliff who know how to set geometry and edge correctly for a steel.
what i can say from personal experience using whusthof as designed by them..
a chef knife of the ikon series or french line in 8-10 inch in 5 solid years of use cooking the primary meal's 5 times a week using only a fine grade whusthof steel, and never mistreating the knife.. This means, each use 5 seconds of light hone before use. wash, dry, hone, after use (also 5 seconds or so, using a feather like approach). never dropping in a sink or using on the wrong type of surface. in this application i always had cutting performance of a high level in meat and veges. I was always able to clean draw cut paper. and i never had to sharpen them over the hone because i never damaged one.
with careful use, i'd have performance cutting for hundreds of years using steeling. this works exactly because of the nature of the steel and heat-treat geared to this design and use.
I think none of us will have the time or dedication of Cliff in this fashion, and so more of what we say may end up sounding anecdotal, but we should avoid this at all costs and only offer information from personal experience if possible
when it comes to discussing performance related attributes vs talking about cosmetic or preference based attributes.
This makes me think of another experience in how people related knives and treat knives and how subjective performance might be relative to how dainty people are in treating knives.
in NZ i have a nice plastic handle Murray Carter Nakiri that is 1.5mm thickness tri layered steel with carbon core that rusts on a dime. worth $300+ usd i believe. performance attributes would be considered the high hardness (circa 62rc i believe, but unsure as he doesn't measure) and the thinness. with 1.5mm blade, 1"+ bevel ground to near zero it is a true laser beam.
its the sort of knife that people would treat like a baby and treasure.. Ironically, i prob treated it the same way as a $2 knife. it got left out with food contaminates all the time. dripping in water, sometimes not used for a week (lazy slob out fishing mode). where this exemplifed it self is that id just grab a scotch brite and srub it clean, hone it a few times on a dmt 1200 and it was good to go. not rust chipping in the edge because of the fine grade of the carbon steel. it was a work horse knife that would cut through aluminium cans no issue and just performed great.
on the other side of the coin, i had a 6" Victorinox that i had zero ground myself, even thinner than Carters knife. it also performed like a lazer and did lots of rough jobs. but this is only 56rc or so, maybe 58?
in real use treating them both like rubbish, they both worked exceptionally well. they both ended up needing very similar level of maintenance. the thinner softer Victorinox would roll more often in cutting fish bones and stuff, but the softer steel restored on the 1200dmt faster and easier.
so is one better than the other? subjectively we'd all like to say that the carter is a better knife, better steel, better heat-treat. most definitely better grind out of the box without someone who can grind that themselves. but when equalized, and in real use, one would be considered "junk steel" by many and one would be "steel superior" by an elite group.
the carter is definitely the better, but not enough that any normal users in this world could really say a lot in general misuse. but then there is the staining and taste coming off tomatoes etc. its all a trade off. there are no junk steels. but there are junk grinds, junk heat treats etc that can all effect performance. most of the time i would say its the grind and design that has the greatest effect on thinking a knife is awesome.
I have a heavy bias myself towards what most are calling cheap junk steels.. the reason being that i don't like sharpening knives. i don't want an arsenal of Waterstones or diamond stones as essential to just get some steel off a knife. i love a knife that i can reprofile fast and easy. that alone is worth 10 times more to me, than a slight longevity of sharpness in real use. i don't mind 5 seconds honing before use each use.