General Firearm Discussion

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me2
If you’d limit realistic ranges to 25 yards I think that’s way more workable.

Yeah when I say survival in this instance, I mean like actually living in the middle of the woods or mountains somewhere in isolation. No combat or anything like that, just using the gun for close range small game, 25 yards tops.

Also, unfortunately, much of my calculations with trajectory for the AR platform in .223/5.56mm were horribly wrong because I my results were listed in MOA, not inches, all my units and therefore the end results, were wrong.

So unfortunately, once again, it looks to me like the AR might not be the best choice for someone like myself. I just want more power. To get it, I need at least a .243 Win. launching 75-85 grain varmint bullets, the higher BC’s and faster speeds will get me there. And honestly that would also make an excellent coyote rifle and could easily be used for neck/head shots on deer to get maximum meat recovery from the carcass.

What ballistic path requirements do you have considering the 200 to 300 yard envelope established above? Have you considered alternative calibers? 6.5 Grendel, 6mm ARC, 350 Legend, and a recent curiosity of mine 458 SOCOM all offer considerable improvement in terminal ballistics. If you’re willing to pay the price you can have an AR 10 in 243, 7mm-08, 308, 6.5 Creedmore, 260 Remington, and a couple other oddballs I’m forgetting. 18” barrels will keep weight down and allow them to stay under 11 pounds empty with scope.

I don’t want more than about 3 inches of either drop or drift out to 200 yards. A 3 inch circle from the ballistics, adding in the actual accuracy of the rifle itself, and my ability to shoot it, should mean that as long as there’s no more than 3 inches of drop or drift out to 200, I can land hits on an 8 inch circle no problem. At that point a miss would be my fault and not the rifle’s.

I’m kinda leaning towards a bolt action with a detachable magazine like the Savage 110 tactical or something similar, though an AR-10 is becoming more tempting.

At the moment, it’s looking like a .308 firing the tipped match bullets is probably the way to go. Even at a slow 2,600 FPS, the 168 grain ELD-M or A-Max can stay within my trajectory requirements out to 200 yards quite easily and will hit like a truck. I really do miss having a .308, it’s such a great cartridge.

I mean get what meets your requirements but that path should be well within a Mk262 style load’s capability. I zeroed my 20” rifle 3” high at 150 yards to do exactly what you’re talking about. Maximum point blank range for a 6” circle is just under 270 yards and that’s with my somewhat milder load moving at 2600 to 2650 fps. It might get 2700 from the 20” barrel.

When doing your calculations remember the sights on an AR are nearly 3” above the bore where typical ballistics calculators default to 1.5". This extends maximum point blank range but the minimum point blank range suffers if your sights are closer to the bore than the radius of the desired circle of impact. The bullet rises 3” to meet the line of sight somewhere between 40 and 45 yards then rises further to 3” high at 150 yards. By 200 yards it’s still 1.5 to 2 inches above the line of sight. This is based on ballistic calculators as I’ve not shot this load past 150 so I do have to verify this. I did zero it at about 50 yards and then confirmed at 150 yards and had to make a little adjustment to be where I wanted. A 50/200 yard zero or a 36 yard zero are commonly recommended for AR styles. That is for standard 5.56 loads, which I'm not using so I'm on my own.

As a side note the carry handle sight on the 20” rifle is a marvelously versatile sighting system. The elevation drum has a zero point marked for 300 meters/800 meters, with intermediate marks at 400, 500, 600, & 700. One full revolution puts you back at the starting point with 800. The drum can also be disconnected from the elevation cradle to turn it and set your own zero, then tightened back down. The starting zero elevation is set with the front sight post and the drum is then used as a drop compensator. Each click is 0.5 MOA, or very close.

I have it zeroed at 100 yards at the very bottom dial elevation, then raised it 0.5 MOA at a time to zero 3” high at 150 yards. Then I loosened the drum and moved the 300/800 starting marks to match the 3"/150 yard zero. Dropping to a 100 yard zero just requires 4 clicks down to bottom the drum out then I can be back up to my standard zero at the 300/800 mark on the flat of the drum with 4 clicks back up. If one can use iron sights, which I enjoy more than scopes, then it's the same as a good dialing scope only more rugged. The limits of my vision won't let me shoot much beyond 300 yards, which should take 4 to 5 more clicks upward to zero from it's standard location. By 300 yards, I should be just 6 to 7 inches low.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/19/2021 11:00PM by me2.

Yeah I don’t know what I did right or wrong at this point, I’ll have to go back and redo the work in a while after some time away from the ideas. I know my sight height was right, I think it was a combination of using a 75 yard zero and having the units for drift and drop set in MOA instead of inches.

And I definitely agree on the AR iron sights. They’re easily the best stock/standard ones I’ve seen on either a combat or hunting rifle.

The HK45, after a very short 50 rounds of initial shooting, appears to be quite a solid and accurate pistol. All shooting was done at 7 yards. Ambient temperature was 21 degrees F. I fired two magazines of 10 rounds in SA only, 2 mags of 10 in DA/SA pairs, and one mag of 10 was dumped as fast as I could make hits, which took approximately 5 seconds. Here’s a few initial impressions after that small amount of experience:

- The SA-only shots were done first, before my hands were cold, and it was stacking shots in the same hole. All 20 rounds ended up in the same ~1.5” ragged hole in the paper. So the accuracy is definitely there, both the gun’s own ability and my ability to shoot it well.

- The DA/SA groups were wider, about 5”, but my hands were cold at that point and I’m simpy not as experienced with DA/SA guns as I am with others. So still not bad.

- The magazine dump was unbelievably easy and fast, and I don’t practice doing that very often, it’s not something I’m typically doing when training. Despite being a .45, and despite me being deliberated more relaxed and sort of sloppy with technique than I would otherwise be, this gun is extremely easy to shoot quickly. The muzzle falls right back onto target, even with crappy gun control, and there’s absolutely no feeling of insecurity or slipping of the grip, it stayed locked in the same place in my hands. All the shots landed in a 7” area.




If I can already shoot it that well, in 20 degree weather when I’m uncomfortable and tense and don’t have much dexterity, I think I should be able to shoot this thing extremely well after a decent amount of practice. And I’ve got all winter to procure a custom shoulder rig for it.

Also, I found in the frozen ground behind the cardboard box I was shooting at. Depending on where you measure it, it’s anywhere from 0.8” to 0.95” wide. That diameter, combined with a small amount of hydraulic force and possible bone fragments involved, it should produce wounds of around one inch in diameter. Possibly a bit more. And there’s 10 of them available before a reload is needed. In the realm of low velocity pistol cartridges, meaning stuff that’s not impacting at more than about 1,350 FPS, this is as good as it gets.

Very impressive. HKs are generally out of my price range but they’re very nice. What ammo is that? I’m slowly searching for a 45 but in 1911 format for bullseye shooting.

SmallArmsSolutions
History of the M16A2 & What Did Stoner Think?

It’s Federal HST 230gr. +P

If it was closer to, or over, $1,000 then I would have had a hard time justifying it. But $800 for a gun with this level of durability, reliability, the power and utility of the .45 Auto, the very long 20,000 round minimum service life, 3 magazines, and quality tritium sights, well, $800 is pretty cheap. My 629 was about $1,400 and it came with basically no accessories, to put it in perspective.

And another point of reference on price, you’d be quite hard-pressed to find a decent 1911 for $800 and you won’t find any 1911 at all, regardless of who makes it, that’s this durable and trouble-free. A good one is reliable enough to defend yourself with or kill some deer with, definitely, but there’s absolutely no chance of one having a 20,000 round minimum service life. The design just doesn’t support that.



I like 1911’s for the very good triggers and the classic American appeal, but as a basic utility or combat pistol they just can’t keep up with stuff like the HK45 or a G21.

My A4 clone is my favorite rifle right now so I'm sure I'd like the original A2 design. It's a very nice design, particularly once the initial issues were worked out. The difference between a rifle length gas system and a mid-length system is noticeable but it's not huge. Jumping from a rifle to a carbine length system is more of a difference, though I haven't shot a carbine length rifle in a while. The 20" barrel is really nice for an iron sight shooter. The 1/7 twist on mine is nice since I like the heavier match bullets, though I think a 1/12 twist is more ideal for the lighter bullets especially to keep the velocity up and pressure down.

Yea I've heard the 1911 isn't as reliable a design as some of its proponents think. I've only shot one a couple of times but it was reliable during both outings. It was accurate too at least for me.

For the last stage of the competition I'm planning I think it has to be a 1911 design and must be chambered in 45 ACP. The three sections of competition require at least 2 different pistols. The stages are 22, centerfire, and 45. A 45 can pull double duty in the centerfire section too though many people choose a different caliber and quite a few still use DA revolvers in 38 Special. 1911 designs in 38 Super and 9mm are also common.

As with my bolt action requirements, my 3 requirements are somewhat limiting for my choices. I have to have adjustable target sights, ambidextrous safety, and 45 ACP caliber. Nothing says I can't add the safety and sights afterward, but I might as well get what I need from the start.

There will be a lot of practice involved, as part of the competition is shooting with one hand, off hand and standing 50 yards from the target. My local range doesn't even have that distance, so to practice I have to sit at the rifle range and hold the gun up off the bench. I also recently got some 25 yard targets adjusted for size to simulate the 50 yard targets. I haven't tried them yet because I don't want to adjust my sights yet. They're set for 10 meters so I can practice on tiny targets using 10-meter air pistol targets. I'll use these for a while then move out to the proper distances. I'm going to try to make a load for my M&P9 that is accurate enough to try, but I don't have high hopes. That gun is intended to maintain 8" groups out to 50 yards. That said, it will do so with basically any load I've tried, but tightening the groups up is proving difficult.

Happy new year everyone. 2020 asked if 2021 thought it could do better and 2021 said "Hold my beer".

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me2
Happy new year everyone. 2020 asked if 2021 thought it could do better and 2021 said "Hold my beer".

Yeah, after this year I’m pretty hesitant to say, “Come on, it can’t really get any worse than this year.”

2021 was basically 2020 but with more tyranny and a far worse economy.

This is a slow motion video of an HK45 firing. I watched it and I think I spotted the reason why I found it relatively easy to shoot quickly:

Note what happens when the slide fully returns to battery, the force and momentum involved actually pushes the muzzle downward. It pushes it back down, level again.

It’s kinda interesting to watch.

I was eyeballing this thing a couple weeks ago when I picked up the HK45, and just couldn’t talk myself out of buying it. It’s a new/old stock Ruger 10/22 Target model. Laminate stock, 20 inch .920” bull barrel, upgraded trigger over the base models. Luckily they had a full set of inexpensive but decent enough Leupold Rifleman mounts and rings, as well as a Leupold VX-Freedom 3-9x40 Rimfire scope.

With the mounts and the optic it wasn’t exactly cheap, but it just looked and felt so good I had to get it. It basically fixed all the issues I have with the standard 10/22 carbines: Stiffer stock, heavier barrel, no iron sights, better trigger, more overall weight for easier shooting, while also keeping all the benefits of the 10/22 design: durability, reliability, simplicity of design and operation.

The weather up here is very cold right now, negative 2 degrees F at 2:00pm in full sunlight, so I’m not sure when I’ll actually get to shoot it. But it should be an excellent tool for small game and plinking.

The overall weight with the scope, sling, and 10 rounds of ammo is exactly 8.5 pounds. It’s a hefty little thing, but I personally consider that a major benefit to the practical/in-field accuracy of the gun because a heavy rifle is much more stable to hold on target. A normal 10/22 is around 5 or 6 pounds with a trigger that takes about 5 to 7 pounds to pull. It’s really not a good combination if you’re interested in accuracy in the woods. This rifle is 8.5 pounds with a trigger that takes about 3 pounds to trip, making it far easier to send a bullet down range without moving the rifle off target.

As for the potential ultimate accuracy of it, shooting from a bench, I actually don’t expect it to be as good as some of the better bolt action .22 rifles on the market. It very well may be, it might surprise me, but the reason I bought this isn’t because I wanted an extremely accurate .22, I bought it because I wanted a semi-auto .22 that would be relatively easy to shoot well under field conditions.

While the trigger is significantly lighter than a standard 10/22 trigger, it’s still not anywhere near a Savage AccuTrigger, for example. But it’s definitely light enough that I shouldn’t have any trouble hitting a squirrel or a rabbit while shooting offhand.

We’ll see how it plays out, but I’m pretty optimistic. I think it’s gonna be a winner.

Nothing wrong with a 10/22. Have you seen the zombie challenge on CRS Firearms on YouTube? 100 head shots at 100 yards on 2 targets separated by 4 feet. It was originally set for 100 seconds but no one has come close. It was also originally set for 22 LR, but people were having so much trouble he opened it to any caliber or platform. I would try it but all I have are tube fed 22s.

No I hadn’t heard of that, but it definitely sounds interesting. That CRS Firearms guy is funny though, he’s basically the only fellow Wisconsinite I can think of on YouTube.

I’ve never owned a 10/22 before and I actually can’t remember ever shooting one, either. Which might be some kind of misdemeanor in certain states. I think the only semi auto 22 I’ve used was the couple different Marlin 60’s I had. I still regret selling the stainless/laminate Model 60 I had, it was a sweet rifle. Killed a nice tasty fox squirrel with it once:





One thing I can say is that the Marlin’s trigger is much heavier but also more predictable, you take up the slack and then there’s a very clear point at which it’ll break, similar to a Glock trigger.

The trigger in the 10/22 Target is far far lighter but it’s actually not very clear as to when it’s going to break, it’s not at all what I’d call crisp or clean, like a Savage AccuTrigger. It starts moving back and then it just sort of goes off, it’s hard to predict. But it’s definitely lighter, much lighter. Aiming at random objects in the backyard and dry firing (with aluminum snap caps) it’s definitely clear that pulling the trigger doesn’t cause the reticle to move in any way, the reticle is sort of floating around a bit (the natural effect of aiming a 6x scope offhand) and then you hear the click when it goes off.

I’m very familiar with the Marlin 60 triggers. My older one is lighter. The iron sighted one might be 7 pounds or so. It’s heavy enough it becomes a problem when I was shooting the silhouette matches. I’m considering the MCARBO trigger spring kit for that one to lighten the trigger and maybe get it to reliably cycle CCI standard velocity. The older scoped one will run it no problem. The biggest benefit of the 10/22 often named is the plethora of aftermarket goodies. I’m not a trigger snob but a good trigger in a target rifle like you have is helpful. I’ve come to really prefer 2 stage triggers for such things.

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me2
I’ve come to really prefer 2 stage triggers for such things.

Me too. I think it’s probably because the first real rifle I had was a Savage with an AccuTrigger, and because a lot of the handguns I shoot do basically have a two stage trigger. I like having tension there before the shot, sort of preloading the finger before firing.

But I can definitely use single stage triggers also, I mean that TriggerTech I have that’s under two pounds is extremely effective. You basically just rest your finger on it and when your brain wants to fire the gun it just goes off, there’s no actual sensation of pulling anything at all.

I’m not sure why but I’ve been on a pistol testing spree. Most likely it’s due to the excellent results from my Blackhawk. I’m in the middle of a wide array of 9mm testing with 3 different powders and 5 different bullets. Should be fun. I also have a new powder to try for lighter 357 magnum bullets. Load data indicated over 1700 fps for a 110 grain Hornady XTP. That’s from a 10” barrel, but I shouldn’t loose too much dropping to a 6.5”. It will be hard to beat the accuracy of 2400 and 158 grain XTPs. For my guns and my shooting ability, those are certainly the best centerfire handgun groups I’ve shot. On some days they beat the Victory 22.

Pistols are just fun, dude. And they’re undeniably the most versatile guns in the sense that you can basically always have one on your person. Shotguns and rifles are great but it’s just not feasible to have one on ya all the time.

1,700 FPS or more should be doable from that 6.5” barrel, that sounds about right to me. By the way, that would make an absolutely devastating varmint round. The 110 grain XTP’s at that velocity will be very explosive, even on small animals.

The 158 grain bullets are the best for versatility but the lighter and faster ones are definitely worth working with for when you don’t need as much penetration.

Have any of you guys worked with drop leg holsters? I have one for my G27 and I enjoy it a lot for outdoors use. Considering getting a custom leather drop leg for the HK45, which I’m continuing to be very happy with. The gun is just exceptionally easy to shoot and provides ample power.

Another note on the 110 grain .357 loads moving at around 1,600 FPS or more:

That’s basically the same velocity that the 5.7x28mm launches a measly little 40 grain bullet. So while 110 grains is definitely on the lighter side for a .357, it’s still producing far more power than the other common high-velocity pistol cartridges.

Ryan,
The 5.7x28mm out of a 4" pistol with the down powered 'civilian' loads is anemic at best.

Took the Wrangler out for the first 100 rounds to see what’s up. Just shooting at cans offhand, nothing too serious, but it appears to work well enough because I could hit cans out to 15 yards.

If they are as good as the Heritage revolvers or better they should be a hoot. You’ll have to try some shorts and Colibri if you can find them.

The action is rough, the trigger pull is pretty clean, the sights are adequate, and it’s small enough to fit in a jacket pocket while bumming around in the woods or hunting. For well under $300, it’s decent enough so far. And I really like the old single-action design, it’s fun and functional.

Try it with rapid fire limits (5 shots in 10 seconds). I’d be lucky to keep all 5 on a silhouette let alone in the 9 or 10 ring. I plan to try with some 38 Special loads in my Blackhawk but it won’t be pretty.